Has Anyone ever heard of a horse "roaning out" and having been one normal color (like sorrel or chesnut or bay) and then at 3 starting to show white...????
please give me links....... 10 points to most relevant links....
Roan Question horse people!!!!?
Some Observations on Classic Roan (Rn):
Sheila Archer, equine genetics researcher, copyright 2005
Not all horses that have inherited this form of roaning display the pattern at the expected time - when the foal coat is shed. A small percentage of classic roan horses will exhibit a slightly later development. This is similar to the occasional late onset of grey (about 7% do not show for at least 5 years). Appaloosas also can show delayed expression of Lp-caused traits and roaning, by as much as 10 years in some cases.
The genetic reasons behind a delay in dispersed white pattern development are not understood, and there's very little information available on this. I suspect that basecoat colour has some effect, and that horses which are homozygous black (E/E) are potentially the slowest to roan, but there must be other, as yet unidentified genetic causes. Personally, I have observed slow roaning in a classic roan horse first hand, in Spanish Mustang I purchased as a yearling. He did not develop classic roan patterning until he shed his winter coat, the spring he was a yearling. It was not apparent with the shedding of his foal coat. He is a dark grulla, has a bay classic roan sire, and a normal, non-roan grulla dam. I suspect he's just a "late bloomer", and that this does happen from time to time with classic roan horses (the kind that have the Rn mutation).
One might argue that this horse isn't actually carrying classic roan (Rn), but has instead some other sort of roan-causing pattern gene. I suppose it is possible that there's more than one gene that can cause roan patterning of a kind similar enough to classic roan that they are hard to tell apart from each other by physical appearence alone. If there are other genes that cause similar kinds of roaning, there is no way of knowing for sure until the Rn gene has been isolated and can be DNA tested for. Right now, all we know is that Rn is most likely a mutation at the KIT locus, but that's all that is known at this time. The only way to find out if there's more than one type of roaning gene at work that makes similar looking horses that all sort of seem to be classic roan, but aren't genetically the same, would be through lab-based research to isolate the genes. To the best of my knowledge, no one is doing this right now.
For more information on coat colour and pattern in the horse, I recommend the following text by Dr. Phillip Sponenberg, the world's most-recognized equine coat colour and pattern phenotype-based researcher.
Equine Color Genetics - 2nd edition
D. Phillip Sponenberg
2003 Iowa State Press (Blackwell Publishing)
ISBN 0-8138-0759-X
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The Occurrence of Appaloosa Patterning in Horse Breeds:
Sheila Archer, equine genetics researcher, copyright 2005
The main gene responsible for Appaloosa patterning is called "leopard complex", symbolized by "Lp". This gene occurs in other breeds of horses and ponies, yet it is the "appaloosa" gene, in the sense that all breeds which have this mutation will show one or more of the patterns associated with the leopard complex. The following is a partial list of breeds in which Lp occurs:
Spanish Mustang (also called the Spanish Colonial Horse)
Knabstrupper (Denmark)
Noriker (Austria)
Fallabella (Argentina)
British Spotted Pony (UK)
Karabair (Turkmenistan)
Altai (Russia)
There are others, but these are some of the most common ones. There are also still a few undetected LP-carriers in the following breeds that once had many more of them, but have now outlawed that coat pattern gene in their registration rules:
Andalusian (Spain)
Lusitano (Portugal)
Lippizan (Austria)
Quarter Horse (N.America)
With regard to the Quarter Horse, at one time, before the weeding out process was complete, there were a number of registered QH's with Lp. They were allowed to be registered because back then no one paid much attention to what sort of roaning a horse had, as long as it was not "obviously" Appy (or Paint) in appearence. These horses inherited Lp from unregistered Appaloosa-patterned ancestors - the Spanish Mustangs that were part of the recipe the QH was created from. There were a number of LP-roans in the early days of the AQHA, but they are now virtually all gone. I know of no recent cases being reported. The AQHA has done its best to remove all "paint" and "Appy" genetics from their gene pool, and perhaps that work is now complete.
It is extremely hard to hide Lp in a line of horses, unless the breed has an obscuring trait. For example, the Lippizan and the Andalusian are now almost entirely grey carriers, and Lp hides there well. However, if obscuring genes like grey are not present, and/or when the right two horses are crossed, a modifying gene that helps to produce white patterning is also inherited, from the other parent, and presto - a blanket, and a very obvious-looking horse. Several famous lines of Appaloosas started out this way, the result of a cross between two AQHA parents.
Regarding LP-caused Roaning:
Sheila Archer, equine genetics researcher, copyright 2005
It is incorrect to say that eventually all Lp-carrying horses "roan out completely". Some amount of roaning normally occurs when Lp is present, but the amount varies greatly. Most horses get a moderate amount of roan hairs, some get very very few - a handful sprinkled through the coat. Also, in ALL cases, no matter how much roaning LP causes, the horse never roans completely to an all-white appearence. It retains "varnish marks", and this pattern cannot be mistaken for any other type of roaning, nor does it look like the pattern caused by the grey gene. "Varnish" marks are dark areas where less roaning occurs, and are located over the bony, prominant areas of the body, an important distinguishing feature of LP-roaning. Horses that are homozygous for LP roan more evenly, because they get no dark body spots, just white hairs, and they have unpigmented hooves, but they still keep their "varnish marks".
Photo of an LP-roan by Sheila Archer.
Another horse, much older, and homozygous for LP, so she has no spots, only a lot of white hairs. Still, she has retained her varnish marks. Note the extreme loss of pigment in her face. Some homozygous Appaloosas get this way as they age. Photo by Sheila Archer.
Readers who would like to learn more about the Appaloosa and its genetics,
please consider joining our research team's electronic classroom:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theappaloo...
To learn more about the current research being conducted in Appaloosa genetics:
www.theappaloosaproject.org
The Appaloosa Project research team is made up of ten equine genetics researchers from all over N. America. Sheila Archer is the phenotype researcher (studies the inheritance of obvious physical traits), working with photos and pedigree analysis. The other nine members of the Appaloosa Project research team are molecular biologists, headed by Dr. Rebecca Bellone (was Terry). They do lab-based genetic research on the DNA samples Ms. Archer finds for them from selected groups of horses.
Funding for the Appaloosa Project comes through the participating universities (U of Tampa, U of Kentucky and Texas A%26amp;M), as well as a yearly research grant from the Appaloosa Horse Club of Canada (ApHCC), and private donations from breeders and Appaloosa enthusiasts.
If you would like to donate to our research, we would really appreciate it. All ten of our researchers are volunteers. Not one cent of the money we raise for research goes to us - only to the purchase of lab materials, chemicals and sample shipping costs. To find out how to donate, please visit this link:
http://www.theappaloosaproject.org/shirt...
Sincerely,
Sheila Archer
Co-ordinator
The Appaloosa Project
www.theappaloosaproject.org
Some Observations on Classic Roan (Rn):
Sheila Archer, equine genetics researcher, copyright 2005
Not all horses that have inherited this form of roaning display the pattern at the expected time - when the foal coat is shed. A small percentage of classic roan horses will exhibit a slightly later development. This is similar to the occasional late onset of grey (about 7% do not show for at least 5 years). Appaloosas also can show delayed expression of Lp-caused traits and roaning, by as much as 10 years in some cases.
The genetic reasons behind a delay in dispersed white pattern development are not understood, and there's very little information available on this. I suspect that basecoat colour has some effect, and that horses which are homozygous black (E/E) are potentially the slowest to roan, but there must be other, as yet unidentified genetic causes. Personally, I have observed slow roaning in a classic roan horse first hand, in Spanish Mustang I purchased as a yearling. He did not develop classic roan patterning until he shed his winter coat, the spring he was a yearling. It was not apparent with the shedding of his foal coat. He is a dark grulla, has a bay classic roan sire, and a normal, non-roan grulla dam. I suspect he's just a "late bloomer", and that this does happen from time to time with classic roan horses (the kind that have the Rn mutation).
One might argue that this horse isn't actually carrying classic roan (Rn), but has instead some other sort of roan-causing pattern gene. I suppose it is possible that there's more than one gene that can cause roan patterning of a kind similar enough to classic roan that they are hard to tell apart from each other by physical appearence alone. If there are other genes that cause similar kinds of roaning, there is no way of knowing for sure until the Rn gene has been isolated and can be DNA tested for. Right now, all we know is that Rn is most likely a mutation at the KIT locus, but that's all that is known at this time. The only way to find out if there's more than one type of roaning gene at work that makes similar looking horses that all sort of seem to be classic roan, but aren't genetically the same, would be through lab-based research to isolate the genes. To the best of my knowledge, no one is doing this right now.
For more information on coat colour and pattern in the horse, I recommend the following text by Dr. Phillip Sponenberg, the world's most-recognized equine coat colour and pattern phenotype-based researcher.
Equine Color Genetics - 2nd edition
D. Phillip Sponenberg
2003 Iowa State Press (Blackwell Publishing)
ISBN 0-8138-0759-X
--------------------------------------...
THE GENETICS OF COLOR
Thanks to: tracy@scoraz.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Tracy Scheinkman)
Horse Color by D. Phillip Sponenberg and Bonnie V. Beaver is an excellent book on horse coat color genetics.
When my mare was pregnant last year I became very interested in color genetics in horses I wanted to know the probabilities for the color of the foal. My mare is a grey, the sire is a bay (our baby is a beautiful bay filly rapidly going grey). This is a basic version of what I found out as I am a biology student. I may use some very technical terms but I will try and make them understandable.
First, color inheritance in horses is NOT governed by a single gene. Hair color of horses like hair color of humans and other mammals is governed by many genes interacting with each other.
To a certain extent it can be thought of as a series of transparent overlays with a figure of a horse underneath, what color the horse is depends on which overlay is uppermost and how much of the underlying colors it allows to show through. For example in the case of a horse which has both a gene for roan R and a gene for grey G, both of which are dominant genes, you will not be able to tell that the horse has a roan gene because the greying covers it up. The only hint you would have would be when the foal is just born if their coat is about half white hairs mixed evenly with the backround color, except at the head where roans do not have as many white hairs as greys, then you would know that the foal carried roan coloring but shortly thereafter the foal's coat would begin to grey out as the grey gene is a progressive whitener of the coat. Thus as an adult the horse could conceivably carry a roan gene and yet look perfectly white.
Now on to the next lesson. Genes always come in pairs. Geneticists label them with a capital letter if the gene is dominant or a small letter if recessive thus G represents grey color and is dominant g represents non- grey and is recessive. In order to see a recessive color both genes in a pair must be recessive thus a bay horse would have gg at the grey gene location (called a locus) and a grey horse would either be GG or Gg. Got it?
Next, not all books use the same lettering system for different genes a gene called A in one book might be B in another. Just look for consistency within the book or article itself. The book I will be referring to is called Horse Color and was written by D. Phillip Sponenberg,Phd.,DVM and Bonnie V. Beaver. Sponenberg is a researcher with a university in Virginia, I believe, and is still doing research into horse color. This is a wonderfully complete book which includes over a hundred color photographs of the various coat colors and patterns they discuss. The appaloosa information which is in the book is incorrect and Sponenberg has recently published new information on appaloosa inheritance which I have included here (see Equus, April 1990 issue).
Horses have available two different color pigments eumelanin which is responsible for black and chocolate brown horses and the black in a bay's mane and tail, and phaeomelanin which is responsible for the red or yellow color of sorrels, chestnuts, palominos, and the red body on clear bays. Now we're ready for the genes themselves.
A a dominant gene is responsible for bay horses by restricting eumelanin to the points or the mane, tail, and legs of the horse, the rest of the horse has red phaeomelanin pigment (note the exception: dark mahogany bays and seal browns have other genetic elements at work, mahogany bays have an additional gene allowing some eumelanin, seal browns are actually genetically black with another gene P causing light areas on muzzle and flanks)
a the recessive gene is responsible for black and uniform chocolate brown horses, a common color for Morgans and some Quarter Horses, this gene allows eumelanin over the whole horse uniformly
B a dominant gene for the black variety of eumelanin
b a recessive gene for the brown variety of eumelanin, the difference apparently is in the microscopic arrangement of pigment molecules, these horses also tend to have amber or light brown eyes and pinkish brown skin, in order to have a uniform chocolate brown horse then the horse must be aabb, if it is A-bb then it is a bay with brown points instead of black (red body, brown mane tail and legs)
C this gene means that the horse's color is fully expressed, non-dilute
ccr this recessive gene is the cremello gene it dilutes phaeo- melanin markedly, eumelanin a little, it is responsible for blue-eyed light cream or white horses that some call Albinos (true name cremello if chestnut is diluted, perlino if bay is diluted), however there is no true Albino gene for horses, this gene is also incompletely recessive so when big C and little c-cr are present in one gene pair a horse that would otherwise have been chestnut or bay would be instead palomino or buckskin respectively. Fascinating, huh!
D is responsible for all dun horses except claybank duns which are mostly c-cr horses, duns have dorsal stripes, some also have leg striping
d non-dun
E this dominant gene allows eumelanin at the points meaning it allows bay and black this allowance of black color becomes important because of the next gene
e this recessive gene causes phaeomelanin red or yellow over the whole body in other words chestnut, sorrel, or palomino, this gene is said to be epistatic to the A locus this means that if two e genes are present they cover up the effects of A or a, think of it as opaque plastic overlays the horse might have been black, bay, or brown according to its other genes but because of ee it's red (note: sorrel and chestnut both generally refer to the same color, red, however different breed associations refer to the lighter phases of the color differently than the darker phases of the color, to further complicate things different breed associations do not agree as to what term shall cover what shade of color)
Ed the proof for this gene is incomplete, this is a dominant gene at the E locus that causes the color called jet black which is a non-sun-fading black color mostly seen on Clydesdales and a very few other large breeds it is not present for example in Arabians whose black color when present comes solely from the normal recessive mechanism
F normal red mane and tail on ee, chestnut or sorrel horses
f flaxen mane and tail on chestnut or sorrel horses
G grey, this dominant gene is like a transparent plastic overlay, when the foal is born whatever color it would have been without the G shows through, thus it is black, or chestnut or bay or whatever, then as it grows older it progressively whitens as each new coat gets more and more white hairs mixed into it
g non-grey
P pangare (pronounced pan-gar-ray), this causes light areas on muzzle, over eyes, on flanks, stomach, it causes black to become seal brown and chestnut with flaxen mane to become blond sorrel p non-pangare
Sty smutty, causes some black to become mixed into body coat clear sorrel becomes chestnut or liver chestnut clear bay becomes mahogany bay palomino becomes smutty palomino
sty recessive causes clear pure color, a clear pure red is often called sorrel among Thoroughbreds and Quarter Horses
Z silver dapple, causes eumelanin to be diluted to flaxen, this gene is really only a factor for breeds such as Shetlands, Icelandics, Dutch Warmbloods and Norwegian Fjords, Norwegian Fjords may have a combination of dun and silver dapple genes
R roan, causes white hairs to be mixed with base coat color, this color is non-progressive though it does change a little with the seasons, also this gene is thought to be a dominant lethal meaning that RR horses die during developement, most roans are Rr and throw solid colored foals as well as roans, Dutch and Brabant draft horses may be an exception to this rule and if so roans in those breeds are probably due to some other mechanism
r non-roan
T tobiano paint spotting, the amount of white is governed by independent modifiers and can be selected for, thus a tobiano with a lot of white will tend to have foals with a lot of white
t non-tobiano
O non-overo
o overo paint spotting, overos that are mostly or all white often die within a few days of birth because of a malfunction of the colon, the amount of white caused by this recessive gene is governed by an unknown mechanism possibly womb temperature maybe independent genes but cannot be selected for, overos often throw solid or nearly solid foals
Sb sabino paint spotting, often confused with overo, the minimum expression seems to be high white stockings and extreme facial white, common among Clydesdales where the color is sometimes erroneously called roan, many horses exhibit the Medicine Hat pattern popular among some breeds such as the North American Spanish, white foals develope normally in contrast with overos
sb non-sabino
Note: the term tovero refers to a horse which exhibits a combination of overo and tobiano patterning, such horses would be genetically T-oo, a horse that is genetically T-ooSb is theoretically possible
W dominant white, this is the gene we see in the American Albino horses, it is not a true albino gene, the skin is pink, the eyes of such horses are usually brown, also this is a lethal gene meaning that all Dominant White horses are Ww, the WW form is unknown there are no exceptions
w non-white
Apl non-appaloosa, to be a non-appaloosa the horse must be Apl Apl
apl this is another incompletely recessive gene, apl apl horses are the few spot appaloosas that produce 100% appaloosa babies no matter who they are mated to, Apl apl horses are the brightly patterned appaloosas we are most familiar with, other modifier genes causing the different patterns leopard, blanket, varnish roan, etc., there may be other appaloosa mechanisms that are unknown currently (note: the grey gene has the same affect on appaloosa pattern spots and splashes that it has on solid colored horses and eventually such appaloosas that carry the G grey gene will become completely white just as solid grey horses do, in those cases the skin under the white hairs is often visible and is pink in the blanket areas and dark where the spots or solid areas were, thus an all white horse with pink skin and a few oval spots of dark skin may actually be a few spot appaloosa that has turned grey)
Now how it works, let's take the case of a black horse which is one of the most difficult colors to achieve in most breeds. Remember that chestnut ee covers up black aa and bay A-. So a chestnut horse with a black ancestor is bred to a bay horse with a black ancestor, the chestnut's gene pattern looks something like a?ee the bay's gene pattern looks something like AaE?, now there are 16 different combinations possible of which 4 are definitely bay, 4 are bay or chestnut depending on what genes the ? are, 4 are chestnut or black, 2 are bay or black, and only 2 are definitely black. If we make the first ?=A and the second ?=e then, the possible offspring are 8 chestnuts, 6 bays, and 2 blacks in other words a ratio of 4:3:1. When you add more color genes it becomes more complicated.
There was someone who had a question about an overo and a tobiano being mated together, in such a case one would need to know the colors of their parents in order to find out whether the tobiano possibly harbored an overo gene, if not then a paint offspring would likely be tobiano, a solid colored offspring is also a possibility, either of which when bred to an overo could produce overo foals in the next generation. I don't remember the colors but they add more complication to the picture.
As to the grey question, grey covers up the base color, let us say that color is bay, well bay can hide a black gene or a chestnut gene, so depending on what the grey is bred to you could have a chestnut, a bay, a black, or another grey, or numerous other colors. Remember to look at your horse's breed and parentage, certain breeds don't have some color genes available to them. For example Arabians don't have Z silver dapple or E-d jet black, and b chocolate brown is a tremendous rarity, so those genes are unnecessary to consider. My mare's line has had nothing but greys, bays, and chestnuts for many generations, black was known eight or ten generations back but hasn't shown up since then so I won't need to bother checking for other colors such as overo genes or cremello genes when I breed her to another of her line. Since I am interested in black I would want to see if the sire had a line that included black genes. One more thing, the likelihood of a recessive gene showing up in subsequent generations decreases with each new generation that does not show it, but as in the case of black coloring, it never completely goes away.
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%26gt;I have a mare (9yrs.) that was born a bright chestnut with just a small %26gt;white blanket (no spots) over her hips. When she began to shed her baby %26gt;coat, there was a lot of white mixed in (a greying gene - G), but also, %26gt;small copper spots appeared all over her body (today she looks nearly %26gt;like a leopard with varnish marks). I'm assuming that - using a %26gt;transparency effect - that she had not only a greying gene, but also a %26gt;gene for leopard type spots over her body and that the spots really %26gt;didn't appear, but were actually there the entire time, but weren't %26gt;visible in the original chestnut base color. When the greyign kicked %26gt;in, replacing the base color, the spots then became visible. Since the %26gt;greying didn't affect the spots - they must be governed by something %26gt;the greying cannot effect. This mare's mother is a true red roan, but %26gt;with a grey gene - she is still pretty roan, but lighter than at birth %26gt;(she's 22 now). The sire of my mare is a leopard with strong leopard %26gt;breeding (Prince Plaudit).
Well, the first thing you know (besides the fact that your mare is from racing lines, I believe Plaudit was a race horse of some merit) is that your mare has two ee genes otherwise she wouldn't have been born chestnut. She also carries an Appaloosa gene which allows the pattern to show through, but since she's greying out that pattern will eventually dissappear. I suspect she also has an R roaning gene because of how the spots stood out from the backround for a while. She has at least two pattern genes, the appy pattern genes can be carried by solid horses but won't be expressed unless the horse is either Apl apl or a few spot appaloosa. There are numerous pattern genes, at least eight patterns are suspected, your mare carries a blanket pattern gene and a leopard spot gene. Also she has two flaxen genes ff indicated by the flaxen mane. So far we have your mare as: ee ff Gg Rr Apl apl and since I am not sure whether the pattern genes are dominant or recessive we'll give her at least one blanket gene and one leopard gene. (What a neat horse, you should write to Dr. Sponenberg and tell him about her.)
%26gt;Now, I bred this mare last year. I bred her to a grey QH who has strong %26gt;grey, black and what I call near black (even darker than a seal brown - %26gt;they look black except upon very close examination of the muzzle and %26gt;when the sunlight hits them just right) breeding. What I got, basically
Note: dark almost black is still considered seal brown, it is genetically black with the pangare gene causing the light areas on muzzle and flank
%26gt;surprized me. I got a solid chestnut colt with a chestnut, mane and %26gt;tail with some blond highlights (mom has a very blond mane and tail). I %26gt;did expect more color at birth. I an convinced that this colt will grey %26gt;out. He does seem to be changing much slower than mom did though.
As I agree he will grey out, the grey gene causes greying at faster or slower rates based on other genes that can be selected for, but in this case I think that this is another indication that mom had roaning helping her to look grey faster.
%26gt;he's losing his baby coat (he's 4 months now) there is some roaning %26gt;around his blaze and some white hairs around the base of his mane (his %26gt;mom was already making dramtic changes as she shed her baby coat and was %26gt;the color she is now by the time she was 2 yrs.) . I am sure he will %26gt;gradually turn grey; whether he has any other body spots like mom, I'll
The description you have of him already having some white hairs on his face confirms the grey gene, generally greys will start greying at the face which will always be a little whiter than the rest of the body, whereas roaning generally is not as heavy or is non-existent on the face. %26gt;have to wait until he greys more.
Mom is rebred to same grey stud for %26gt;'92 - so we'll see what we get. %26gt;Any thoughts on how this colt might turn or what I'll get next year? %26gt;Also, this colt thus far has some future stallion potential. I'm %26gt;curious as to what his color producing potential is and whether he's %26gt;produce any strong color other than greying. App/QH crosses are a big %26gt;market and a good stallion will have to throw color even out of QH %26gt;mares. What do you think? %26gt;Kitty Cummings
From your description the stallion is G- (-means we don't what gene is paired with this one) what gene is paired with this can make a difference to you as a GG horse throws nothing but greys, not very useful for making colorful appaloosas. If the stallion is Gg on the other hand then there is a 1 in 4 chance that a mating between him and your mare won't be grey, 3 in 4 that they will be grey. This stallion definitely harbors an e chestnut gene, otherwise your colt wouldn't be chestnut. Since mom is Apl apl then the chances are the reason your colt hasn't shown spots or pattern is that he did not inherit one of the base apl appaloosa spotting genes from her, thus any pattern genes he has would remain hidden only to show up when he is mated to an Appaloosa mare, especially a few spot, but under those circumstances he could produce either a blanket or a leopard pattern depending upon what he inherited from mom, both patterns in one horse are possible. I believe from what you have said that he has one grey gene, not two, as horses who carry two GG genes tend to grey out very fast. If that is the case then there is a 50% chance that he can produce a non-grey if he is bred to a non-grey. He also carries the potential for a black, however that won't happen if he is bred to a chestnut as chestnut covers up black and bay. So far your colt is: a- ee Gg rr Apl Apl (meaning non-Appy) and probably carries one blanket and/or one leopard gene (he definitely does if these are recessive genes). He may or may not carry the pangare gene which the stallion may carry, we don't know nor will we unless your colt produces a seal brown.
If I were you I would breed this colt to nothing but Appy's with color who are non-grey that would up his chances of producing color. Also if you want black don't breed to a chestnut or chestnut Appy because he will definitely produce chestnut then (of course if you like chesnut that's great). P.S. he may also be able to produce bay when bred to a non-chestnut, black is tough to get. If he spots out later (please excuse my ignorance in this area and enlighten me if you have time) then he will be shown to carry one apl gene and can pass that along 50% of the time to both spotted and non-spotted horses.
The Sponenberg book is the only really good book on horse color genetics that I've ever found, it was published in 1971 and I borrowed a copy from the University of Arizona library and xeroxed almost half the book. It is called "Horse Color" by D. Phillip Sponenberg and Bonnie V. Beaver, I believe it was published by the Texas A %26amp; M University Press. I found a good section on Appaloosa color in another book that was being used as a text for a horse management class at Pima College a few years ago but I do not recall the author or name of the book (sorry). Good Luck to you and your horses. By the way your mare has a good chance of producing a non-greying appaloosa if bred to a non-grey stallion, 50% chance non-grey, 25% chance non-grey Appaloosa, but as you point out color is not everything, conformation is very important and should override color choices in many cases. Tracy and everybody
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Tracy, Thanks for the response - I had once taken a genetics course in college, but had kind of gotten away from it. Now, though, this discussion on color has really peaked my interest again. Though appy genteics are complicated - I think it would be neat to not only breed for conformation and working ability (as these two are certainly more important than color), but to also selectively breed for and predeict color.
I'm still assuming that the greying gene doesn't always affect patterns as my mare (an I've seen others) definately greyed, but the leopard spot pattern left behind has not changed since she was 2 yrs. In other words, she did all her chameleon stuff before she was two and has not turned another odd hair since (she's now 9, so I don't anticiapate any further change). So with my colt, I'll have to wait for the greying to take palce to se if there is another underlying coat pattern like mom's.
%26gt;From what you said, I think I'll probably get a foal next year that is very similar to this years.
In '92, I will breed this mare to a dun leopard - I think when I get the book, I'll have to spend some time predicting what I'll get. Care to take a stab at it? I would like, in my breeding program to produce duns, buckskins, red duns, grullas, palominos and blacks (I know this will be tough) - I'd like to get away from chestnuts, bays, etc (too common). I realize I've got my work cut out for me, as obviously I've got breeding stock that already carry alot of chestnut and greying gene and as these horses are good stock pedigree, conformation and working ability -wise, I'm not going to run out and scrap them.
Can you give me some idea as to producing palominos and what crosses are most sure to give palomino? I've bred buckskins, red duns and grullas - but I've never produced a palomino.
Thanks for yout help Tracy - I find this whole subject fascinating!
Reply:Roaning in horses occurs in more than one breed. I have known several appalooses that have started out solid and then roaned as they age. Appaloosas often change their "spots" or colors as they age. This is NOT considered a fault. I have also personally known two chestnut quarter horses that have roaned at the age of 3 or a little after. I don't know if this is considered a fault in them although I would assume it isn't since the AQHA will register foals that are born roan.
Reply:nope
Reply:Here is a great link. It tells about all the different types of roaning.
http://www.horsecolor.com/white_mixed/ro...
Enjoy!
Reply:When one of my horses was born (Thoroughbred with a little bit of Arab), she was completely chestnut. When we bought her (about 1.5 years old at the time) she was a dark rose gray with dapples. Over the past three years her coat has gotten lighter. Now she is turning flea bitten. Lipizzaners are born dark gray and turn white......
Not roaning but .......
Reply:*laughs* Jazzzz.......min? Having other people help in your search for answers, I see! You should also add that your horse may have some arab blood in it. That may help in the search.
~A Tropical Wave. ;)
Reply:A lot of horses do this......It is genetic, several breeds do it, it is considered a fault in appaloosas, something cool in 1/4 horses,
and hidden in saddlebreds...The "greying" gene" in appaloosas, is avoided like the plague amongst many breeders,,It appears to lead to eye problems within that breed,
Reply:Yes have heard of it and owned a blue roan.
She was very dark to start out and got slowly more and more white to her. Ended up a dark gun metal grey color.
Pretty horses and I like the color.
Someone else has already listed the link I would have .
Reply:This website is really interesting. You'll find a lot there. They even have an article roaning genetics, and a lethal roan gene.
http://www.equinecolor.com/roan.html
This site goes into the genetics of horses coat color:
http://members.aol.com/MFTHorses/sponenb...
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